Blame it on the bogeyman
I’m all hot and bothered. There’s an official FIFA10 gameplay teaser to mull over:
I’m not very worried about the surface similarity to FIFA09. The main thing for FIFA10 was always going to be the changes off the field—and that’s where I am seriously concerned as these summer months unfold. The gameplay on the field only needed relatively minor tweaks. I’m more worried about the overall tone of the trailer.
Bizarrely, this trailer reminds me of all those generic intros for the bad old FIFAs from the late 1990s through to FIFA2005 or so. Would EA dare to spring a HD version of FIFA2005 on us at this stage? Could EA be reneging on the bold statement of intent that was next-gen FIFA08?
FIFA09 was already a partial climbdown from FIFA08’s rugged, methodical, slow-paced game. They definitely lost their bottle and played it safe with FIFA09 in many ways. Could FIFA10 be another step in that wrong direction?
There are a lot of worried folk around. I’m one of them.
Perhaps I’m reading too much into a few highly stylised snippets of gameplay. But it’s interesting that they chose to showcase the game in this way. This is a trailer that harks back to FIFA’s arcade-oriented days.
It’s certainly not a trailer designed to soothe the PES refugees who fell upon FIFA08 with such glee. There’s no sustained gameplay in there. Just the ’same old FIFA’-style signature moments: the tricks, the shots, the thrills, the spills. The kinds of things that the hypothetical, impatient, Barca-lovin’ 13-year-old (the bogeyman of modern football gaming) loves to see. The trailer seems calculated to appeal to the kinds of appetites that were satisfied by old-style FIFA.
The ideal trailer would be one we’re unlikely to see from EA: a trailer that featured extensive passing moves leading to bread-and-butter shots, defensive tackles, and the like. I.e. ordinary footage of sequential gameplay, not selected chunks of razzmatazz. I suppose we’ll have to wait until August to see some ordinary gameplay, in the traditional shaky mobile phone footage from an exhibition hall.
I’m not as despondent about the overall look of the game as others seem to be. I’m surprised that anyone was expecting—or even wanting—FIFA10’s gameplay to be substantially different from FIFA09’s. What I don’t expect is for it to be more arcadey than FIFA09 was. FIFA09 was almost on the borderline of acceptability in this respect. Any further towards (or over) that border, and we’re right back in FIFA2002 territory. That was not a good place to be.
It’s not just the prospect of a totally arcadey FIFA10 that has got me in a tizzy. I heard an awful rumour today that there will be no night matches or weather in Manager Mode yet again. Now that’s really worrying. I won’t be getting FIFA10 if this turns out to be true. Really I won’t. (Not unless the new secret game mode is something truly astonishing.)
Is it shallow of me to ‘threaten’ to boycott FIFA10 if I don’t get flakes of snow and floodlights in Manager Mode? Yes and no. Yes because, ultimately, it’s gameplay that determines the greatness of a football game. But no because, well, FIFA09’s and FIFA08’s gameplay are both pretty great, but the emptiness of their game modes just leaves me cold. I have to really work at feeling enthusiasm for them.
I’ve been through the emptiness with FIFA08 and FIFA09. I’ve had the hollow feeling of knowing there’s a great game of football literally at my fingertips, but not a lot I really want to do with it. I will not repeat this process with another FIFA instalment. It’s career mode or bust for me in FIFA10. I’m just like that.
It does make you wonder how hard it can be to apply night matches or weather within a game modes, especially if it exists elsewhere in the game, although this pales into insignificance compared to the lack of real currency that now seems finally to have been applied to PES10.
As for the FIFA10 video, it doesn’t exactly scream 360 movement, but from what I have read it seems its there and working very well. I’m not one for fancy tricks when i play fifa09, just simple pass and move.
Pass & Move – it’s the Liverpool groove
It seems like an inordinate amount of analysis and conjecture off a 30 second glimpse of gameplay, which, by the way, looks pretty snazzy.
Soon we’ll have to give a proper name to this movement, like….uh….. the football-sim-neo-constructionists……..or….manager-mode-modernists……….something like that.
It looks like a tv-worthy advert, I don’t think theres anything past that to look in too. A long passing seqence will not entice people to be interested in the game, more likely get bored. We all know the results are determined by shots not the stuff in between (ala Arsenal).
Makershaker—Hopefully the rumour will turn out to be false. I think it will. I heard in another place that midweek night matches are definitely in, so who knows.
I’m looking forward to getting hands-on with this 360-degree movement for myself. I’ve got a feeling no video will really do it justice.
Surfer Dude—The clip does look pretty good but I can’t shake an uneasy and stubborn suspicion that season 2010 is going to a disappointing one for me with both football games. It’s pure paranoia, and don’t worry, it is in perspective. When exaggerated, it’s mostly for rhetorical effect, with tongue at least partly in cheek. This post was originally called Pass the Valium. I changed the title at the last minute.
I like the idea of there being distinct ideological encampments within the football game world. I’d put myself in the neo-classical bracket when it comes to football games. I want to have my cake and eat it. I want the classic fun gameplay of a football game but I want the serious, sober simulation too. And I want it all in one game. It’s far, far too much to ask, of course, but classic PES created this appetite, and I’ll judge everything by its lights
Paww—but 99% of time in a football game is spent passing the ball. I agree the shooting has to be satisfying as well (something next-gen FIFA still hasn’t managed), but the lead-up to the shots has to be satisfying too.
I fear an early-2000s style FIFA10. I don’t think you’ve played either of the next-gen FIFAs yet (have you?) so you won’t yet know what’s at stake. FIFA08 was almost the game that PES could and should have been in the next-gen. FIFA09 was a partial withdrawal from that, in my opinion, but still in the right zone. I worry that EA will dilute the formula yet again and take their brave new FIFA series back into its bad old days.
Happily, I’m 99% sure that I’m wrong about this. That 1% of doubt is nagging at me, though. I’m sure I’ll feel a lot happier once more details emerge, and maybe when we finally see an extended slice of gameplay.
Hey not-Greg…
I suppose that by then, you’ve heard that everyone’s seen the PSM3 feature on the 55% complete PES2010….. let us know what you think
http://pes2008editing.blogspot.com/2009/07/psm3-pes-2010-scans-leaked.html
TareX—after being ‘off the grid’ for 24 hours (work and other stuff going on) I’m just catching up on today’s developments. I found the PSM3 scans on another site about an hour ago and have now read the main body of the article. My initial reaction is dismay. I wanted the article to leap out and grab me by the neck, screaming about PES2010 being something extra special. I suppose that the ‘only 55% complete’ thing is something to grasp onto, as is the slower-pace of the game (now that’s a big plus, one of the few). As my reaction to the FIFA10 clip shows, I can be a right pessimist when it comes to the football games. I don’t want to overreact to this article. I’m letting it all sink in.
COUGH COUGH – this is what ADAM had to say on PSM3 over at WENB
QUOTE –
The focus has been the gameplay, and thats what Konami need to focus on. The 360 degree dribbling has never been mentioned from Konami, only in false rumours.
Like I mentioned, everyone need to look at the initial press release that details a lot of additions and improvements, and focus on those to avoid disappointment.
END OF QUOTE
see http://kitanamedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=879&start=180#p34519 page 10
There may be trouble ahead…
Same here. The subtle changes to gameplay tactics are the most exciting, but everything else scream “minor evolution”.
I too am holding on to that fact this is a 55% finished game, and that -like PSM3 said- many animations (including dribbling animations) haven’t been implemented yet. But I’m still having a lot of trouble believing that 60 days before the game is burned on DVDs, it still looks and moves like PES2009.
If the build PSM3 played feels very similar to PES 2009, how could Suff be “very happy” with what he saw, when he has said that he doesn’t like 2009 at all?
I would think that there has to be key changes to the game for him to enjoy it again.
The biggest reason I have high hope for this game is because I trust Suff’s opinion, he seems very genuine. Confusing, I really hope he’s not just saying things to please Konami (and get you know playtests, trips to Konami HQ, free copies of games etc). I mean Adam & Suff would never offer up anything other than a 100% honest view????
Night matches and weather changes are in MM 10, as are many, many improvements – checkout the wheepeeler thread on the official forums.
There will be no real gameplay footage on show until mid August and we have already been promised slower gameplay that requires more passing through midfield to breakdown defences so I shouldn’t worry not-Greg, I think you’re being overly pessimistic. Or maybe I’m being overly-optomistic…?
I guess Suff was excited about the pace of the gameplay and the simulation feel, as well as how he had to penetrate the defenses.
But other than that, with animations only 50% complete and graphics being the last thing to add, you cannot judge the way the game looks on wide cam.
Alan Brazil—I thought I’d be hearing from you! You’re quite right to echo Riot’s fateful words, “There is no next-gen PES” – words to haunt us all.
I still say it’s too early to call, but suffice to say my optimism has ebbed away. I’m trying not to be overly pessimistic either, though.
For me the issue is still PES2010, not WENB. I haven’t the time or energy to join in a proxy war against them. I’d only believe WENB to be actual, literal Konami shills if they were caught in flagrante in a sting operation in a hotel room incessantly having oral sex with Seabass on top of a pile of our money, as so many imagine them doing… (Seriously, it’s like a sub-genre of slash fiction.)
Chris—thanks for the reminder. I read wepeeler’s thread the day it appeared, and just have again. I’m soothed. I need to break the cycle of optimism and pessimism in regard to FIFA10 and PES2010, go beyond the opposites, ‘beyond good and evil’ so to speak, and rest in calm repose—until September, probably. I think only the demos, for both games, will fully satisfy this craving to know, right now.
TareX—the sole positives from that PSM3 article, for me, were the reported slower gameplay and the apparent added difficulty of scoring goals. (I say apparent because PES is traditionally weird and hard at first, even the easy ones.) Could it be that that pleased Suff so much? Will that factor alone be enough to make PES2010 seem like a true next-gen PES? It’s possible, I suppose. But this is all premature.
It’s interesting following the debate today across all the forums.
My comment (#12) has not been approved, any reason?, plus the 50% completed idea is a little odd – hasn’t this PES been in production for gazillions of years with literally hundereds of people working on it?
Alan Brazil—Part of your #12 comment was a quote from a member’s post over on WENB’s forum. I’m not keen on quoting 3rd parties in this context. I happen to agree with your point that PES2010—so far—shows little sign of having been worked on for three years. It’s possible that Konami are ‘pulling a PES2009′ with PES2010, i.e. putting all their formidable marketing skills to work in an effort to shift units. It’s also possible that PES2010 might still be a great game (that’s my criterion for purchase: not a good game, or a decent game, but a great game).
I’m really, genuinely, totally not fussed about WENB. It’s a big Internet and there are places (PES Gaming, EvoWeb) where WENB’s merits can be discussed at length. Ultimately, whether they are or are not reliable, whether they are or are not shills, patsies, whatever, the issue for me is PES2010 and whether I’ll be playing it this Autumn or not. And that’s all I’ve got to say about WENB.
not-greg ok about WENB but actually if one discusses those people on Evo-Web etc., one is pretty quickly told to shut up. I am almost thinking of setting up my own blog to freely discuss some of the shameful activities of those that claim to represent the community in an honest and independent fashion.
But getting back to PES2010 – why are PSM3 being critical this time? After all did they not think PES2008 on PS3 was 10/10 – if such professional fanboys are skeptical can’t even all the dim 12year olds that congergate at places like WENB and PESFAN not see the writing is on the wall for this title? After all for about 2 YEARS we have been told 2010 is the REVOLUTION….really are all those claims to revolution holding up well?
Alan Brazil—the optimist in me wants to believe PSM3 are playing it ultra-safe and just repaying some of the bad karma they accrued with PES2008. I think the entire gaming press failed us that year (I only remember one minor games website calling out PES2008 as a poor game).
I’ve just reread the PSM3 article and it’s really negative almost all the way through. The mag’s taking a risk, as Konami have a history of pulling advertising from magazines. When one of the old Xbox magazines gave PES5 a bad review, Konami pulled their ads immediately.
The forums are buzzing! PES2010 has now got some ground to make up on the PR front. I’m bemused at how the addition of animations between now and August could alter gameplay – ? A slowed-down PES2009 in a new box with some tinkering done to the game modes won’t cross my purchase threshold. There’s got to be something more. I’m still crazily hoping there will be.
I don’t want this to be the end for me and PES. We’ve been together for most of my adult life. But if push comes to shove, there’s always PES2008(PSP). And FIFA10.
not-greg good point about the adverts – and in this economic climate perhaps PSM3 have been as kind to Konami as they dare be – without totally destroying their creditability whilst also trying to keep Konami onside – which if true might indicate that PES2010 is even worse than we think.
They won’t alter the core gameplay per se, but they could dramatically impact the game’s feel. More animations will give the game a more fluid feel — additionally, they might add to the list of options in terms of creating space or finishing that might bring a lot of variety to the table as well.
I’ve been playing PES 09 recently, and for me the #1 issue that has to be sorted is the AI. The AI is so poor, so stupid, that it really blunts the game’s edge.
It’s all well and good to say “we’ve made the game more tactical, it is harder to score, the player must be patient.” But what does that mean in practical terms?
With PES 09, they said the same thing (in fact, they’ve said it every year), and it meant: “Your players will play the ball toward defenders rather than into space, runs off the ball will be ineffectual, and players will drift toward their markers rather than away from them, regardless of your settings.”
Counterattacking in PES 09 is something that happens more by chance than design — many times my forward players won’t attempt runs behind their markers at all, even when to do so would still leave them well onside.
It’s not enough to make the game “harder,” or reduce the number of goals scored. A “tactical” game isn’t the desired outcome, it’s a side-product of the desired outcome. The true object of desire is a realistic football game. I think the PR message from both series have fetishized the so-called “tactical” game in deference to us simulationists, but they may be missing the point.
Realistically, an above-average player like Freddy Adu can play like Lionel Messi when he’s playing against my Kansas City Wizards. Against Italy? Not so much. Realistically, there are players at every level of the Football League that can hit 30-yard screamers and beat defenders with pace . . . provided the defenders are slow enough. West Brom played beautiful football in the Championship — you don’t need Messi or Ronaldo or Torres to do so. You might have trouble doing so against the bigger, stronger, faster athletes of the Premiership, but c’est la football. Against Plymouth Argyle West Brom can look like world beaters.
PES 2009 forced a “preferred” style of play onto us by hamstringing other options. It wasn’t tactically deep, like a PES title is supposed to be — it was the opposite! That’s not “realism” or “simulation,” it’s just the flip side of the arcade coin.
PES 2010 needs to widen the range of possible tactical approach, and judging by the PSM3 article, they have at least attempted to do so. The article mentions that trying to play Barcelona-style with Liverpool’s defensive tactical sliders is impossible, but once you’re on Barca, you’re good to go. This is extremely heartening to me.
Assuming the sliders are able to open a range of tactical approaches, additional animations will transform PES 2010 from an intellectually interesting football sim into a beautiful, responsive game with multiple inherent approaches — in other words, a PES game.
Of course, it will also open new exploits for The Boogeyman, but you know what? I really can’t be bothered. A game that is 13-year-old proof wouldn’t be any fun to play anyway.
well that is VERY optimistic in my view
All
I just found this site only yesterday (pity). I love these mature, intelligent discussions on the PES and FIFA. Hats off to you guys!
I have both PES 2009 and FIFA 09. I play them on XBOX 360. My honeymoon with FIFA 09 is over and I’m back to the loving arms of PES. What has improved my PES 2009 experience is the global editing of player attributes.
With the superb PES 2009 editor, I have reduced the top speed and most importantly the agility. Now, it plays like an entirely different game. I can’t stop loving PES 2009.
I’ve already written about PES 2009 editing in my blog and I would write more to explain in detail on the methodology. Cheers!
Alan Brazil—there’s so much being said in so many corners right now that I’m not sure about what anything means anymore. Everything can be spun every way. The albatross of PES2008 is hanging around our collective necks. Bottom line: I want PES2010 to be great. There’s been some bad news in the past 24 hours but not enough to make me despair just yet. I’m still looking forward to, er, a certain well-known fansite’s NDAs expiring, and hearing their side of it. I’m also looking forward in August to hearing the first Exhibition-goers’ first-hand accounts of playing PES2010, and seeing the traditional mobile phone footage.
ck—the bo(o)geyman worries me only because I think he’s the games companies’ main focus nowadays. PES of old was always generally age-proof, but in the mass online age I worry about Konami aiming for a ‘kid grab’ (in the most wholesome sense, of course) and sticking with the more arcadey formula in this generation.
Good point about the introduction of more animations—like extra coats of paint—shaping the game and altering its ‘handling’. Football games have an individual handling just as racing games do, and it’s the unique handling of the PS2-era PESes that we’ve been missing so far on the PS3/360.
One nugget of information from the PSM3 article that hasn’t been widely picked up: the return of old-fashioned ‘middle shooting’. On its own it could never carry an entire PES, of course, but if—if—all goes well, this could be the cherry on top.
I’ll be clinging to your last-but-one paragraph. Sometimes the most optimistic outcome possible is actually true.
vjkrishna—thanks for your comment, and I have to say after a look at your article, I’m intrigued by the concept. I’ve heard of this global editing thing before but never really given it any thought. I like a game to work out of the box, and as I’ve never really dabbled much with Editing in PES, mass-editing never appealed to me.
Is the global edit an option in the existing in-game Editor or is special software/hardware required? I’ve just had a quick Google and found a ‘PES Editor’ program but that’s for the PS2 and PC and from years ago anyway. I don’t fancy going through the players one by one. If there’s a quick way to try this out, I will.
Not-Greg
Then, you must try it.
What you need:
1. PES 2009 Editor v2.8 (meant for XBOX 360 and PC)
2. A software called exploder_resigner
3. Datel max Drive and a memory card (or any solution that you have for data transfer between your comp and your X360)
They are global editors. For instance, if you want to reduce the agility of all players by 35%, in ONE click of a button, the agility is reduced for all 6000+ players in the game. THAT’S IT!!!
Please do give it a try. The PES 2009 that I play is a game customised by me on a fantastic game engine made by Konami.
@vjkrishna: I used to global edit my PS2 versions of the game, but as I’m on PS3 now, global editing isn’t a possibility. Pity, because your tweaks sound very interesting.
Next, I’d up the goalkeeper stats to 90 and up and see if the volleyball keeping would go away.
PES 2010: “Our White Van Says ‘Free Candy’ On The Side.”
You might be right — but the arcade style would be a sea change from the old PES formula, and to be fair, it is at odds with the Konami message, which has been fairly consistent about creating “the most realistic football sim to date.” They don’t seem to be interested in pulling in a new audience — they seem to be speaking more to the lost PES fanbase; wrestling with FIFA for the simulationist gamers.
If the top-down direction was to grab more tweeners, I think we’d see new branding and Shao-Lin Soccer moves, free kicks that make the ball catch on fire, manga-style player faces, every player having a zodiac sign that gave him special in-game powers during the right days, etc.
Instead, we just see a vaguely crappy footie sim with awful AI.
Occam’s Razor suggests that ineptitude is most likely to blame for next-gen PES.
vjkrishna—ah, I’m PS3-only on PES2009 I’m afraid. What I could do—if I get time—is edit just two International teams, England and Germany for example, in the way you recommend, and test it all out that way. If I do this I’ll probably post about it.
The thing is, I know I’ve come across this idea before, and I’m sure that when I did somebody was talking about having painstakingly edited every player in the game and created a super-duper Option file downloadable from somewhere. I’m still searching.
ck—
Seabass’ transformation from world-leading, football-game-creating, secular god, into a moustachio-twirling Child Catcher, would then be complete…
I was thinking about PES2010 again last night. (Really, spending most of the last few years thinking ‘whither PES?’ instead of playing it, isn’t quite how I envisaged things turning out back in August 2007 as I was manhandling my PS3 out of the store, literally cackling with anticipatory glee.)
What we know for almost certain is that PES2010 isn’t going to be a FIFA-style leap. There’s no stunning new engine. So the only chance is for the equivalent of ’software emulation’ to bring about a transformative leap. Rejigged gameplay+animations+a few more coats of paint on the graphics could do the job just as much as a whole new game engine would have.
p.s. I finally ordered The Miracle of Castel di Sangro and it arrived over the weekend. I’ve got the last hundred pages of a novel to finish off first, but it’s next.
I keep thinking I’m going to start my next Master League with Castel di Sangro!
Must be my long absense from commenting on the blog clouding your memory not-greg. I own FIFA 08 and played 09 quite frequently on a friends console.
I personally prefered FIFA 08 of the two.
I haven’t played any football games for two months now and to be honest knowing that both of the current titles are ‘flawed’ in my eyes doesn’t give me much inspiration to play either of them.
I hope for great things with FIFA10 but my original comment was merely a suggestion that taking an trailer most likely selected by the PR department of EA to drum up interest isn’t going to show the core game play of the next game.
Paww—ahh, okay. I wasn’t sure if you had played it. Good to hear you approve more of FIFA08 than 09. As much as I’m currently enjoying FIFA09, I’m hoping for FIFA10 to be a step back towards that game, or at least a synthesis of the best of both worlds.
A lot of my continued playing of football games is habit. They fit in nicely around the rest of my life. After the heights of the mid-2000s it’s been a relatively poor few years for football games IMO, despite FIFA’s breakout transformation.